NASA Johnson Space Center
Oral History Project
Edited Oral History Transcript
Geneva
B. Barnes
Interviewed by Glenn Swanson
Washington,
DC –
26 March 1999
Swanson: Today is March 26, 1999. We are in the offices of NASA Headquarters,
doing an interview with Geneva Barnes, Gennie Barnes, and this interview
is being conducted by the NASA Johnson Space Center Oral History Project.
This is Glen Swanson speaking.
First of all, Gennie, I want to thank you for joining me this morning
on this interview. To start, I guess I'd like to just get some background
information on how you became employed with NASA. How did you get
started in this business?
Barnes:
Well, I was working in the Postal Service at the time that I became
interested in the space program. I was a secretary. John [H.] Glenn
[Jr.] flew his Mercury mission, and I stood out in a misty rain on
Pennsylvania Avenue, watching him and Lyndon [B.] Johnson drive down
Pennsylvania Avenue in their parade that Washington, D.C., gave to
welcome him. I went back into my office and called the NASA Personnel
Office and asked if they were hiring secretaries, and they said yes.
I took my application the next morning to the personnel office, and
I was on the payroll by ten o'clock. [Laughter] That was in the days
when NASA was—they could do that sort of thing, you know. They
were relatively new, they were adding staff, and they could hire people.
Of course, it was pending a security background. But that's how I
came to work for NASA.
Swanson:
That was in about 1962?
Barnes:
1962.
Swanson:
And your first function, what area did you work at within Public Affairs?
Barnes:
My first job was not in Public Affairs. I worked for a year in the
old Office of Programs, which was headed by DeMarcus [D.] Wyatt, and
it was part of Dr. [Robert C.] Seamans' [Jr.] staff. They were planning
the lunar missions, how to get there and what might be found once
they got there. He had a staff of engineers whose job it was to work
on that.
I worked there for a year, and then I went to work in Public Affairs
for Brian Duff, who was new. He had just been hired by NASA. He had
been a newspaperman and he was brought in to head a section mainly
of speech writers for the administrator. But we also handled the administrator's
public appearances. Later, Brian then also started handling the astronauts'
public appearances when they would come to Washington. So I sort of
absorbed a lot of what he was doing by helping him put together these
itineraries and speaking commitments.
Swanson:
When you say handling the public appearances, were you in the decision-making
process?
Barnes:
No, no, I was still a secretary. I remained a secretary, although
as I worked in that office longer and it changed hands, you know,
Brian moved on to something else and then Wade St. Clair came in,
I was still a secretary, but I was working in other functions such
as the protocol operations down at the Kennedy Space Center [Florida]
for the Apollo launches. We also did some of the arrangements and
set up transportation and that sort of thing for a couple of the astronaut
funerals here in Washington when they were brought here to be buried.
C.C. [Clifton C.] Williams [Jr.] was one. So I was really branching
out and doing more and more things than strictly secretarial work,
and that's sort of how I worked most of my career here at NASA.
I moved into what they called the Professional Series, not that secretaries
aren't professionals, but I moved into the Professional Series when
I went to work for Neil [A.] Armstrong after the Apollo 11 world tour,
and my job for him was to answer all of his public mail. He had a
secretary who handled his public appearance requests, and I rarely
got involved in that, but mainly my job was to answer the public mail.
After he left the agency, I floated around in a couple of other offices
as a management analyst and administrative assistant and that sort
of thing. Then I had an opportunity to go back to my old office where
I had started in Public Affairs, and I started working on the Shuttle
astronauts' schedules. I was hired to set up their appearances after
they flew on the Shuttle crews, and traveled with them. I traveled
with the first five Shuttle crews to the locations in the U.S., stayed
with them until their appearances were over, and I worked from my
office to schedule all their public appearances for headquarters,
the post-flight schedules. The Johnson Space Center [Houston, Texas]
also did a lot of their appearances, but we did the post-flight schedules
up here.
That's about all I can think of.
Swanson:
We were talking earlier, one of the highlights of your career was
after the Apollo 11 crews returned from the moon, you were involved
with this world tour.
Barnes:
Yes.
Swanson:
I was wondering if you could share some more insights and stories
about that rather ambitious tour.
Barnes:
Well, it was the first time, to my knowledge, that there had been
a world tour for a crew of astronauts. There had been international
appearances by astronauts, but to my knowledge it was the first time
that a crew had been sent literally on a world tour. President [Richard
M.] Nixon wanted to send this crew, the first crew that landed on
the moon, to make some international friends and wave the flag, and
so the State Department and some of his staff set about working on
this project and, of course, got NASA involved. My boss was the NASA
mission director.
We did a lot of work to get ready for it. We spent a lot of time over
at State Department, putting together briefing books and proposed
schedules which changed as we went along.
Swanson:
When did that start, as far as the initial planning or idea to get
kind of an idea of what was involved in the planning of this?
Barnes:
We started, I believe, in early September. Late August, early September
of '69, which meant we all had to get our shots, up-to-date shots,
and we had to get all this information put together. The State Department
actually made the arrangements for the Air Force, the special air
missions people to be involved, and we used the Vice President's plane
for the entire trip. It was considered such good duty by the presidential
pilots that they split up the task, and one group took the first half
of the trip and another group met us in Rome [Italy] and finished
the trip.
We left Andrews Air Force Base [Maryland], I believe, on September
the 29th, as I recall, and went to Johnson Space Center to pick up
the astronauts and their wives. Bill [William] Der Bing was the JSC
staff member from there. Our first official stop was in Mexico City
[Mexico]. We did that all in one day. We went from Andrews Air Force
Base to Johnson Space Center, then Mexico City, which was a preview
of things to come. [Laughter]
Swanson:
You didn't really have a rehearsal for any of this, huh? [Laughter]
Barnes:
No, no.
Swanson:
I just was curious. I'm backtracking. The planning stage of this,
you mentioned, appeared after the mission was completed. They had
not talked about this prior to the actual mission?
Barnes:
I don't know at what point they started talking about it. My boss
and Julian Sheer, who was the head of Public Affairs for NASA at that
time, were the people that were involved in talking to the White House
people and State Department people. The overall mission director was
the deputy chief of protocol for the State Department, and I think
there was a lot—of course, NASA had to agree to it before they
could start any of the planning, but I'm not privy to when it actually
started.
Swanson:
So their first trip was to Mexico.
Barnes:
Mexico City.
Swanson:
Again, it was pretty much the astronauts and their wives. Did they
have any other friends or relatives?
Barnes:
No.
Swanson:
It was just basically the staff members, support staff?
Barnes:
Yes, the support people, three astronauts and three wives. Mexico
City had an airport arrival ceremony. I believe the President of Mexico
was there, if I recall. Then the usual thing was, you know, the motorcade
and reception hosted by the American Embassy.
Swanson:
The countries that you decided for this trip, those were planned in
advance. Did you have to make the preparations, the contacts, and
so forth? Were there some countries that you had asked to go to and
declined for some reason or another?
Barnes:
You know, I don't know. I don't know. But the State Department put
the system going by contacting the American embassies in several locations.
For instance, to go back to your question, I believe there was a plan
for us to go to Israel and Egypt in the first proposed itinerary,
but that was taken off, I presume for political reasons. I don't know.
But we didn't go there.
The proposed stops were all planned out by the State Department working
with the American embassies in a lot of locations. I don't know the
process they used to take different countries off and add others.
I just don't know how that happened.
Wade St. Clair, who was the mission director for State Department,
would probably be able to answer that for you, because he was involved
in all these meetings and discussions, and Julian Sheer, also. But
Wade may have been the one primarily working on the nuts and bolts.
Swanson:
So the trip to Mexico was the first time.
Barnes:
First stop.
Swanson:
Obviously you probably learned some things from the first stop, in
anticipation of some of the other stops.
Barnes:
Well, I think that we were sort of overwhelmed, and I don't really
think we knew what was in store for us. There were crowds, you know.
There were crowds everywhere, but there was a big crowd in Mexico
City, and there was a lot of interest in the astronauts. Even up to
the time that we landed there, I believe there were local people trying
to get onto their schedule to get them to make appearances at various
things. There was, I guess, quite an effort to hold down on the number
of events they could do in one day, and I believe the people in the
decision-making process, Wade St. Clair and the deputy chief of protocol,
probably got a taste of what it was going to be like from there on,
from people wanting to get into the schedule, to get astronauts to
just stop by, you know, stop by this reception. I guess from that
viewpoint we learned a lot of what was about to happen to us.
Swanson:
NASA hadn't really had any experience prior to this. I don't recall,
did the Apollo 8 crew do a world tour?
Barnes:
I don't think. No, they didn't do a world tour.
Swanson:
Just certain countries?
Barnes:
I believe they just went to a few countries.
Swanson:
So this was pretty much new, then, in the NASA—
Barnes:
We were gone thirty-eight days on this trip. It was the longest that
any of the astronaut crews had been gone a consecutive amount of days.
Swanson:
In the tour that went, did they also include the capsule and a moon
rock as part of this tour, or was it just the crew members? I was
mentioning to you earlier about the photographs, but that might have
been separate.
Barnes:
This is what I had in my briefing book, of what they presented.
Swanson:
It was just one aircraft, though, right? They didn't have several
other aircraft? It was just the Air Force?
Barnes:
Just the one. And we had a gifts person, whose job it was to keep
all these things straight and to make sure that the right gift got
to the right country, you know, that the right gift was unpacked in
the proper country to get to the head of state or the representative
that the astronauts presented them to.
I don't recall about the lunar samples. There may have been a dusting
of the lunar samples given here and there, but I really don't remember
how that was done, if at all. I think Wade St. Clair could probably
answer that for you. [Dr.] Bill Carpentier when you talk to him, he
might be able to shed some light on that.
Swanson:
So they spent a day in Mexico City and then they continued on.
Barnes:
We went on to Buenos Aires [Argentina], I believe. No. Bogota. We
went on to Bogota. Generally we were overnight in most of these places.
In Rome and Bangkok [Thailand], we spent three nights, but generally
we were just overnight in all of these places.
Swanson:
Did they stay on the aircraft overnight?
Barnes:
No, the State Department had arranged for a section of the hotel that
we were to stay in, for a section of it to be blocked off just for
us, just for the Apollo 11 astronauts and for the staff people. The
embassies staffed it. We had a control center in each one of these
little sections that we had office machinery to use, typewriters,
copy machines, and we could assemble schedules and type up the little
three-by-five cards that the astronauts liked to use with their notes
on the three-by-five cards. I'd type those up.
We tried to keep up with thank-you notes. We started in Mexico City,
and after we left Mexico City, I know that Armstrong had some things
that he wanted dictated to people that he had met, he and his wife
had met, and I did some of those. But as we moved along, we found
that there were so many people to thank for so many things that we
couldn't keep it up, so we ended up just keeping a list, an accurate
list, and the affiliation and the address. When the trip was over,
the State Department and the local embassies prepared an appropriate
thank-you back to the people.
I've forgotten what your question was. I think I digressed. [Laughter]
Swanson:
Oh, no, that's fine. That's fine. We were just talking about—I
think the trip to the next country was Colombia.
Barnes:
Bogota, Colombia. Brasilia [Brazil] was an unexpected—that was
after Bogota—that was sort of an unexpected stop because there
was some political problem with—I think it was Uruguay, between
the United States and Uruguay, and they wouldn't allow us to fly over
Uruguay in order to get to Rio de Janeiro [Brazil] from Bogota. So
a stop in Brasilia was worked out en route to Buenos Aires and then
to Rio de Janeiro. Brasilia was like an hour and a half. They called
it a refueling stop, and we got a tour of the city in a bus. Some
representatives from the local government and the mayor met the astronauts
in one of the official—the two official buildings there are
built sort of to resemble a cup and a saucer. I couldn't get over
that.
Swanson:
Coffee? For coffee, probably? The coffee bean?
Barnes:
I don't know. I hadn't thought of that. You're right. After all these
years, I hadn't thought of that. And the mayor and his delegation
met the astronauts for an official welcome, and that was the extent
of what we did in Brasilia. It was very simple and uncomplicated.
I think we were two or three days in Rio de Janeiro.
Then we got to the Canary Islands [Spain; located southwest of Morocco,
Africa] from there, and we were already getting tired. People were
starting to become ill. It just started like one or two people with
sort of flu-like symptoms, and as we got on into Europe, everybody
had been ill.
Swanson:
Including yourself?
Barnes:
Including myself. I became ill in Madrid [Spain]. Two or three of
us became ill in Madrid. In fact, there's a picture that somebody
had of one of the—I believe it was one of the security detail
was sitting on the curb in Madrid, had to get out of the car and wait
for a medical person to come and take him to the hotel. When we got
to London [England], Dr. Carpentier went on national television to
deny that the astronauts had brought back a lunar sickness and that
all the staff were exposed to this and we were therefore becoming
ill as a result of what they brought back.
Swanson:
So it came out that you were ill and perhaps the reason was that they
brought back some lunar bug?
Barnes:
Some bug, yes. Well, I guess, in conversations that local representative
embassy representatives would talk to embassy representatives ahead
of us, and they would in turn talk to other people, and I guess that's
how the rumor got started.
Swanson:
It's a reasonable one, because of all the precautions that were taken
after they came back. They might have thought that there was something
that slipped by or whatever.
Barnes:
Yes. The time changes—we were involved with a lot of time changes
and getting used to food, or not food. Also, with that much closeness,
you'd get on each other's nerves. We were staying together in the
same part of the hotel, like next door to each other. Then when we
were flying from one place to another, we were all confined, a small—not
a small airplane, but it got to be kind of small. [Laughter]
We came to look upon the airplane as being home. We were always glad
to get back on the airplane, because the crew would always welcome
us like they were totally rested and ready to help us out with whatever
we needed and cooked our meals and waited on us. We could eat the
food. We could drink the water. We could take a nap. [Laughter] That's
what I remember.
Swanson:
You mentioned that it kind of got on other people's nerves during
the time. Were there any incidents that you can recall that stand
out?
Barnes:
No, I don't think so, but there was—somebody very cleverly designed
sort of a silly thing to break the ice, keep everything on the proper
perspective, and they called it the Personality of the Day. If you
were caught being unkind to somebody or having a temper tantrum, you
could assure that the next day you were going to appear in one of
these write-ups. They were just humorous little things that were passed
out once we got on the airplane. Just silly little things and it kind
of made us laugh and helped with some of the—because you were
tired, you couldn't get proper sleep, it just stood to reason that
you were going to be sort of edgy sometimes.
Swanson:
Now, there was a press group, obviously, with you that wrote reports
and news articles and then these were transmitted though the local
embassies to the papers back home?
Barnes:
Yes. We had two, I believe it was two, USIA [United States Information
Agency] people and a couple of Voice of America people. One USIA fellow
was a writer and one was photographer that was recording all of the
stops. The Voice of America people dropped off after we got through
Latin America, but the USIA fellow was filing stories with his counterpart
in the local embassies. I think the local embassy public affairs people
were also putting out stories that were picked up.
Swanson:
I remember seeing in one of the photographs you were talking about
earlier that were taken on the tour, perhaps it was in the Canary
Islands or it might have been in Zaire, that they were greeted by
a group of local dancers. It looked like it was kind of an uncomfortable
position, because the women were not clothed. [Laughter] I noticed
that the photograph was very selectively taken from the back. I didn't
know if that surprised anyone during your tour.
Barnes:
There was a social event in Zaire, an evening event, I think probably
at the President's Palace when they were welcomed, which I didn't
attend, and there were dancers there. I know one of the aides to President
Mobutu [Sese Seko] had an evening banquet which all the staff was
invited to and attended, and there were dancers there. None of them
were women; they were all men. But they obviously had just come in
from the bush and hadn't bathed in months. [Laughter] That was quite
an experience. They were very gaily clad in their costumes and feathered
hats.
There was also an evening program there where they had dancers. There
seemed to be a lot of dancing there. I know Buzz [Colonel Edwin E.]
Aldrin [Jr.] leapt over the guardrail where the astronauts were seated
with the—I don't know if Mobutu was there or his representative,
but he leapt over the guardrail and started dancing, and that made
the local papers. That was big time. [Laughter]
Swanson:
I notice also in some of the photographs that there were gifts exchanged,
and you'd mentioned here some of the presentation items. Can you recall
any interesting stories about some of the items and some of the exchanges
that occurred while these gifts were presented to the officials?
Barnes:
Now, as part of the staff I wasn't at these actual presentations.
Wade St. Clair and Nick Ruwe [L. Nicholas Ruwe] the State Department
Deputy Chief of Protocol, were always there. Most of the staff didn't
get included in those. Got included in some things, but places where
the gift exchanges were done and the official welcomes, unless it
was at the airport, the staff didn't attend.
Swanson:
When you went to Germany, Berlin, was that particularly memorable?
I remember seeing one of the photographs of the crew members on the
wall, I believe it was, the Berlin Wall. I don't know if there was
a speech made or a presentation or something at that point. Do you
recall?
Barnes:
We were on the motorcade and we stopped there for them to visit the
wall. Frankly, I don't recall if there was a ceremony there. I don't
remember if there was. I remember seeing the wall and I remember that
the astronauts were accompanied there by, I believe, the mayor and
the embassy people.
Swanson:
You mentioned in your comments previously, too, that you had a rather
short stay in Brazil when you went.
Barnes:
That was the hour and a half. That was the hour and a half I was telling
you about when we just stopped and had a tour of the city and the
astronauts were greeted by the mayor. However, in one day we flew
from Paris [France] in the morning, and to Amsterdam [Netherlands]
for a lunch that the astronauts spoke for, spoke at, spoke during,
whatever. Then we went from there to Brussels [Belgium], all in one
day. We landed in Brussels in the evening, and I believe the astronauts
had an event that evening after we arrived, after having been on the
road all day.
I don't know how they kept up, frankly. They were the ones that were
on the front lines, they were the ones making the appropriate remarks
and the speeches to the heads of state. We were doing our best to
keep up with them.
As we traveled, we would get cables from cities like two or three
stops ahead of us that would have the up-to-date and the final schedule.
One of the jobs that I did was to go through the cables and pick out
what was being planned, and then Wade [St. Clair] and Nick [Ruwe]
would look at it and say, well, yeah, we can do this or we can't.
We had a rest stop. We were always saying we need a rest stop, and
we had one true rest stop. That was in Rome. The American ambassador,
I don't believe we had an American ambassador in Rome at that time,
and they turned the embassy over to us for the afternoon. We used
the swimming pool and the tennis courts and just lounged around the
pool and ate hamburgers and hot dogs and potato salad. That was a
true rest stop.
They had another what they called a rest stop in Belgrade [Yugoslavia],
where the astronauts started off on a duck shoot with the representative
of President [Josip Broz] Tito. I believe it was his deputy prime
minister. The astronauts' wives were taken on a hydrofoil trip down
the Danube [River], and the rest of us were put in buses, including
the Air Force crew and all the support group, we were put on buses
and taken on a driving tour of the countryside. We all ended up for
lunch at this country cabin-like place. They served us a seven-course
Serbian lunch, including a roast pig and slivovitz. Have you heard
of slivovitz? It's the local national drink, I guess you'd call it.
They serve it in little teeny glasses. It's like fire. When you take
a sip, it's just like it's going to set your whole—
Swanson:
Hundred and fifty proof or whatever. [Laughter]
Barnes:
Something like that. [Laughter] That luncheon lasted until like four
or five o'clock in the afternoon. As we were leaving this lodge, my
boss came to me and he said, "We've gotten word that the chefs
at the hotel have acquired the ducks that the astronauts shot and
are dressing them for dinner. We're having them for dinner, and we
need to get people out of their rooms and into the dining room."
So he took one side of the hall and I took the other side, and we
managed to get a few people into the dining room, after having all
that food for lunch, for the duck dinner. And you couldn't say no,
because they were our hosts, and that was quite an experience. [Laughter]
I never thought I'd ever want to have anything more to eat again,
as long as I lived, because we were all so stuffed.
Swanson:
What was the longest flight or duration that you had between stops?
Barnes:
There were two flights. There was one from Bangkok to Sydney [Australia]
all in one day, with a two-hour stop in Perth [Australia], where the
astronauts went in, in a motorcade, and were greeted by the city officials
of Perth. We started out early in the morning from Bangkok and we
landed at Sydney around midnight the same trip, same day. The Prime
Minister of Australia met us there, met us in Sydney.
The other one was from Tokyo [Japan] to Andrews Air Force Base with
a refueling stop at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska. Originally
the plan was, when we finished the appearances in Tokyo, we were to
be given a two-day rest in Hawaii before flying back. We were flying
to Houston to drop off the astronauts and then flying from there back
to Andrews, but President Nixon wanted to take his family on a vacation
and their plans were to start fairly soon. So we had to fly straight
from Tokyo to Andrews Air Force Base in one leg. That was quite a
tiring experience.
Swanson:
Obviously it's difficult to plan for the elements, as far as weather.
Barnes:
Yes.
Swanson:
Did that creep in at all as far as your flights?
Barnes:
I don't think so. No, now that you mention it, I don't recall any
problems. I'll probably think of something after I leave. I haven't
thought about a lot of these things for years.
Swanson:
It's been a while.
Barnes:
For thirty years I haven't really thought about these things until
I heard from you.
Swanson:
Just going through some of the outline that you'd given me previously
here, you mentioned one of the more memorable experiences, as far
as the sheer number of people. Can you relate that story, that greeted
the astronauts at one stop?
Barnes:
We were in Dakar [Senegal], and as soon as we approached the airfield,
you can see all these people at the airport waiting to see the astronauts.
The crew had to land the plane, had to shut off the engines as soon
as we landed, because the crowd broke through the restraints and came
running out onto the field. He had to shut the engines off before
we could even approach the terminal. They sent the cars out to get
us at the plane side to take us on the motorcade to the hotel. And
it was a hot day.
As I understand it, when you drive in a motorcade, you're supposed
to keep almost bumper to bumper, to keep people from being able to
squeeze in between the cars and thereby disrupting the motorcade.
But as I mentioned, there was absolutely no crowd control. The engines
started to overheat in the street on the way to the hotel. One of
the security people for the wives came back to the car that I was
in and told us they were taking our car for the wives. We had to get
out of the car, in all that humanity, and look for another friendly
place, another car, which was hard to find, because the crowds had
gotten in between all the cars. Essentially, the drivers were on their
own to try to find their way without following the car in front of
them.
We finally found a place to get into, and we were sitting on each
other's laps and crammed into the back seat of this little car. The
astronauts' car overheated, the engine—I don't understand the
mechanics, but apparently when your engine overheats, if you turn
on the heat it overrides the engine problem and gets you a little
further distance from what you normally would. Their driver turned
on the heat and took a shortcut through a soccer field in order to
get to the hotel. It was kind of hairy. It was probably the hairiest
experience. I was just downright scared. I was downright scared. I
thought what if I can't find another car to get into? What am I going
to do? You just don't know.
Then, of course, in India, in Bombay, a lot of the staff didn't get
to go to that outside ceremony, which is just as well, because it
was very, very hot there. The embassy estimated the crowd to be about
a million and a half people. The pictures, the pictures that I saw,
you could see the heat rising, literally rising, kind of like a cloud
and the humidity. That was an outside ceremony hosted by the local
government officials. Dakar, I believe they estimated that to be about
a million people. A lot of people.
Swanson:
Continuing on, maybe you could relate some of the stories also here
that you encountered at, I think it was Kinshasa [Zaire].
Barnes:
Kinshasa.
Swanson:
Zaire.
Barnes:
Yes. There was like a twenty-five-mile drive from the airport to the
place where we were staying. They had us billeted in a compound of
villas which President Mobutu had apparently built for an Organization
of African States [OAS] conference. The compound was adjacent to the
presidential palace and his offices. The crowd control there was totally
opposite from what we found in Dakar, because the policemen had these
huge whips, and if somebody stepped off the curb to get into the path
of one of the cars in the motorcade, or tried to get into the astronauts'
car, they would use the whips on people and they, of course, scurried
back up on the curb.
The compound where we were staying, there was a private zoo which
the president owned, which was near those grounds, and you could hear
the animals, especially at night. [Laughter]
Swanson:
A lot of this was televised also?
Barnes:
Most of the arrivals were televised live, according to the embassies.
Most of them were televised live.
Swanson:
Tehran [Iran], apparently you had an interesting encounter with a
visitor.
Barnes:
Yes. [Laughter]
Swanson:
Tehran, Iran.
Barnes:
Yes. The staff was invited to go to visit the vault where the Shah
[Mohammad Reza Shah] had all of the family crown jewels stored. The
vault doors are on a time lock and they opened it especially for us,
but I believe they were still time-locked. We were cautioned not to
touch the glass display cases or not to put our foreheads up against
them or touch them in any fashion. But somebody did, and the alarm
started going off and these heavy doors started closing, and the security
guards and the police were doing their best to hold the doors open
while we all scurried out as far as we could go.
Swanson:
So they all made it out?
Barnes:
We made it out, yes. [Laughter]
Swanson:
Avoided an incident. [Laughter]
Barnes:
Cut our little tour short, though.
Swanson:
So apparently you were warmly received in every spot that you went.
Barnes:
Everywhere.
Swanson:
There weren't any occasions where you received protests because you
were representing the United States, as well, for whatever political
reasons were going on. Obviously, [the] Vietnam [War] was still going
on at that time.
Barnes:
I don't think we did. I don't think there was any ugliness. If there
was, it was kept—the crowds were kept a good distance away from
the official ceremonies for the astronauts, but I don't recall any.
I don't know if anything even came up, but that's something that Wade
St. Clair might be able to shed some light on, or Bill Carpentier
might know of some of that, too.
Swanson:
It must have been impressive going to these different countries in
the President's plane, the Air Force One, or the backup, because it
has the painting, the presidential seal and so forth. Did you get
that response from others, too, just seeing that aircraft arrive?
Barnes:
Yes. In fact, one of the embassy people told me that on one of our
evening arrivals, he said when we approached the airport, you could
see the plane visibly and the seal and the flag, the American flag
on the tail. He said it just gave him goosebumps. It was an impressive
plane. When the trip was over, we all gathered under the seal and
had a group photograph made.
Swanson:
They would play the Star-Spangled Banner?
Barnes:
At one of the briefings at the State Department, we were told that
whenever you're coming, we used the back of the plane to leave the
plane, and the astronauts and their wives and a couple of the senior
staff would use the front. In Berlin, we were coming, and I believe
we had to switch planes in Berlin. I believe we couldn't land at Templehauf
with the Vice President's plane, and I think we had to switch over
to a smaller plane. But at any rate, it still had the American flag
on the tail.
But as we came down the back steps, and I was one of the people coming
down the steps, and the band started playing the Star-Spangled Banner.
We were told in the briefings that whenever you heard the Star-Spangled
Banner, no matter where you were or what you were doing, you must
stop what you were doing, face the flag and put your hand over your
heart, and we did. The embassy guy said they picked that up on the
television, on the live television arrival.
Swanson:
Just a response.
Barnes:
It was a good patriotic feeling.
Swanson:
Were you allowed to take any essentials with you, or were those all
provided pretty much on the plane? Were you allowed to take personal
items, luggage and things like that?
Barnes:
We were allowed to have one suitcase to be stored in the hold of the
plane.
Swanson:
One suitcase?
Barnes:
One suitcase and a hang-up bag. Now, the hang-up bag could either
be up front in the cabin with you, or in the hold. I believe it was
in the hold. I was able to smuggle in my wig box, because in those
days you had wigs, you know, and it really came in handy, because
it was hard to find beauty shops in those places to get your hair
done, and I'm not good at doing that sort of thing myself. But at
any rate, we had a suitcase, a hang-up bag, and a briefcase.
We had a fellow whose job it was to get the proper luggage to the
right room at the hotel when we got off the plane. He and his people
would also collect the bags early in the morning on the day of departure
to get them to the airport. So it sort of became a game of Russian
roulette, whether to pack your bags and put them out the night before,
or whether to take your chances that you're going to get up early
enough to get the baggage call and get your bags out. But I generally
put mine out at night and kept out what I was going to wear the next
day, and stuffed my nightgown in my briefcase. [Laughter]
But when we were in Sydney, I was dragging my bags out into the hallway,
about two o'clock in the morning. I used my raincoat as a bathrobe,
because I wanted to save room in my suitcase for souvenirs. So I used
my raincoat, my all-purpose coat, for a bathrobe. I was dragging my
bags out into the hall in my raincoat and my hair up in curlers and
in my bare feet. There was no one there when I opened the door and
looked out, but I heard this Australian voice behind me say, "Good
morning, young lady." I turned around, and it was the Prime Minister.
[Laughter] He'd been to a social function down the hall and was walking
by on his way home, I guess.
Swanson:
He didn't have a camera, did he? [Laughter]
Barnes:
No. [Laughter]
Swanson:
Front-page news. [Laughter]
Barnes:
No. [Laughter] I wasn't at my best. But I thought where in the world
could you meet the Prime Minister of Australia under those—they
were very casual people, the Australians. I enjoyed meeting those
people. They were very nice.
Swanson:
So obviously the food and the water and the time change and everything,
eventually would catch up. I mean, any people who have traveled, just
knowing jet lag on a single trip, and having to get used to the food,
and sometimes water, and whatever other things that they need. Eventually
the illness kind of passed? Did they have medication that they could
take? Did you have a doctor on board that could help?
Barnes:
The flight surgeon—let's see. He was ministering to us as best
he could with the supplies he had. I believe we had anti-diarrheal
medicine and we had the usual things. But I lost twenty-five pounds.
Swanson:
Was that common with the other members, too?
Barnes:
One of the astronaut wives had lost a lot of weight, too. The State
Department and health people would say to us, "Don't eat anything
that you can't peel," which is a standard they tell all the tourists.
"Don't drink the water." You were always bound to slip up
somewhere along the way and do something you shouldn't do. It sort
of took its toll, you know. The metabolism, I guess, had gone haywire.
We probably would have been a good study, a microcosm of all the things
that can happen to you on jet lag, going from one time zone to another
and not eating properly, not getting enough rest. The flight surgeon
finally said to us, "Eat when you're hungry and sleep when you're
sleepy," because we weren't used to a lot of the time changes
and going to bed at the proper time and eating your meals at the proper
time. It was sort of catch-as-catch-can by the time the trip was over.
Swanson:
Sounds like, in retrospect, looking at everything that went into making
Apollo 11 happen, this was probably one of the most difficult things
for the crew members to have to work with. They naturally were uncomfortable
around the public, and now suddenly the world's population is being
laid at their feet.
Barnes:
Yes.
Swanson:
Did you get that feeling?
Barnes:
It was very difficult for them. As I mentioned before, they were always
on the front lines of everything that was going on and people were
looking to them to say inspirational things. I believe it was very
difficult for them. It must have been, because they were called upon
to make speeches and remarks at every place that they had a public
appearance. I don't know the guidelines for what the scheduling people
use on how many events they were allowed to do in one day.
I know when I started working with the Shuttle astronauts, I tried
to keep the major events to like four a day, and a couple of informal
things mixed in, in one given day. But I don't know what they were
using, what the State Department people and my boss and the embassies
were using as guidelines for how many public appearances they could
do in one day.
Swanson:
Obviously, with all the customs from the different countries that
you visited, words take on different meanings and there are some things
we take for granted that we don't think would be offensive to others.
Did you ever encounter a trip-up in some function where it was an
honest mistake, either something that was said or a custom that wasn't
followed?
Barnes:
No. No, I don't. I do know that, I guess, when you're flying on a
commercial airliner that there are some restraints, and as you land
in each country, I guess they spray the aircraft for any kind of insect
or anything that might be brought in from other countries. I'm not
sure how that happened, how that works, but I know that because were
using the Vice President's plane and because we were who we were,
the astronauts, that is, all the countries waived any kind of customs
inspections. We had one guy who carried all of our passports and he
would, just as a courtesy, give the passports to the right person
upon arrival, and they were just stamped and just given back to him.
In Australia, when we landed in Perth, the local officials insisted
on coming aboard and spraying for tse-tse flies. Nick Ruwe, our State
Department guy, was highly offended that they would do that, but they
insisted on doing it anyway. So we were told when they came aboard
to inspect the plane, not for spraying, but to inspect the plane,
we were to just sit there and stare at them. [Laughter]
Swanson:
That seemed to work, huh? [Laughter]
Barnes:
That seemed to work. [Laughter] That was the only thing I recall.
Probably other things would come to mind if I had a chance to think
about it some more.
Swanson:
The astronaut wives, many times they would get overlooked in all of
the celebrity events and so forth that were going on. Did you get
any stories, reflections that you recall on this trip? It must have
been hard for them also, because if the astronauts were reclusive,
the astronaut wives in many cases were even more so. Did you find—
Barnes:
No, not really. In addition to doing appearances, appearing with their
husbands, they were also scheduled for separate events in themselves.
They would work in press conferences by the wives where the local
press would just ask them questions. They were very open and very—
Swanson:
Supportive?
Barnes:
Supportive and responsive.
Swanson:
Did they have separate functions, too, that the wives of the heads
of state, they participated in?
Barnes:
I believe so. I know in Rio de Janeiro, the ambassador's wife hosted
a yacht tour around the city with the astronaut wives and myself and
the State Department secretary, just the women. Again, Wade St. Clair
would probably be able to tell you more of the things that they were—on
my notes, on my marginal notes that I kept in my briefing book, I
don't recall a whole lot of separate events.
Swanson:
On the return, you mentioned earlier they arrived back and then gave
a report to the President.
Barnes:
Yes, there was a report that was prepared, a notebook with highlights
of the trip, I guess, that was put together by the local embassies,
that we carried with us. But the astronauts themselves dictated a
letter, prepared a letter, which they signed, transmitting this letter
and this report to the President, and that was presented to him when
the trip was over and we landed back at Andrews Air Force Base. The
President had the families of all the staff people, had invited all
of them to be at the White House. There was an official welcoming
by the President, welcoming the astronauts back to the U.S. from this
successful tour, where they shared all their information with other
countries about space exploration.
Swanson:
Were there a lot of gifts that were presented to the astronauts as
part of their tour?
Barnes:
There was quite a number. When the trip was over, we had to ask for
a special dispensation from Congress for them to keep the ones that
they treasured the most and wanted to keep the most, because as a
government employee, as you know, you're not allowed to keep anything.
I've forgotten what the value is now, but you have a certain value
that you can keep things, and over and above that, you have to ask
for Congress to give you special dispensation.
Swanson:
Do you recall any unique items in particular that were presented that
come to mind?
Barnes:
I believe that the Shah of Iran gave them a Persian rug which had
the Apollo 11 insignia woven into it, into the center of it, and they
were each presented with one of those. That's the only thing that
comes to mind. Of course, Congress gave their approval for them to—because
it wouldn't mean anything to anybody but them.
Swanson:
Well, after all this is done, did the astronauts then have an opportunity
to take a real vacation? [Laughter]
Barnes:
I'm sure they did. [Laughter] But a month after that, they went to
Montreal [Quebec, Canada] and Ottawa, [Ontario,] Canada. Apparently
that could not be logistically fitted into either the beginning of
the trip or the end of the world trip. So a month after that trip,
the world trip was over, they went to Montreal and Ottawa and were
received by the Prime Minister [Pierre Elliott Trudeau] and did appearances
there.
Swanson:
That's all very interesting. I'd heard of the tour that the astronauts
presented, but, until now, really never knew how massive an effort,
a project that was. Buzz Aldrin, I think, mentions it in a book that
he wrote shortly after. It was called Return to Earth.
Barnes:
Yes, I have a copy of that.
Swanson:
In fact, he had some problems afterwards. I wonder how much this affected
him, if there was any sign at the time of what was to later happen.
Barnes:
Well, from my own personal viewpoint, I know when that trip was over,
I had three children, I had a three-year-old, an eleven-year-old,
and a thirteen-year-old, and was glad to get back home to them. I
know when we left the White House grounds, my husband and the children
met me there on the White House grounds, and when we left to go get
the car from the parking garage, all of a sudden it dawned on me,
there's nobody bringing me a car. [Laughter]
Swanson:
You got spoiled. [Laughter]
Barnes:
I was just worn out. And when we got home, I didn't even unpack my
bags. I just sat down in a reclining chair and sat there all night
long, because your adrenalin, you know, the whole time you're traveling,
you're pumped up. You really can't sleep well, because you're afraid
you're going to miss your wake-up call, afraid you'll miss the plane.
And all of a sudden, everything is down. You don't have to wake up
at a certain time the next morning, you don't have to pack a bag to
put out in the hall.
Swanson:
And risk encountering the Prime Minister of Australia. [Laughter]
Barnes:
Right. [Laughter] It was like you'd really come down, and it took
a couple of days to get yourself back to the functioning level.
Swanson:
To return to Earth. [Laughter]
Barnes:
To return to Earth, as Buzz Aldrin would say. I believe that he did
speak of some problems that he had after the lunar mission, where
it was a letdown, and I can see why if you were training all those
months for such an undertaking as that and it's over. What do you
do after you go to the moon? But on a smaller scale, speaking for
myself, I could see that I did have a down time, a couple of days
there where it was hard to really get back in the real world.
Swanson:
Was there an assessment of the tour afterwards inside of NASA to see
if this was something that they wanted to do again? I know you mentioned
that the Apollo 12 crew took a similar trip, not as extensive, but
they also took a trip, too. Did they use kind of a lessons-learned
from this?
Barnes:
I'm sure they did. I know that there was a feeling after our trip
was over, that the United States had gained a lot of benefits by having
them go meet public people, as well as the heads of state, and that
we had gained support for the space program. After the Apollo 12 flight,
there was a similar world tour for them. I believe those were the
only two that were done.
Swanson:
Were you involved on the 12 tour?
Barnes:
The staff people were from my office, the same office that went to
support that. My boss' deputy was a NASA representative and his secretary
was the NASA secretary that went.
Swanson:
But you didn't have to pull another tour of duty as far as actively
going to these different countries on that tour?
Barnes:
Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no. I couldn't stand to do it again. It was really
quite unique and a wonderful experience and one that I never would
have had, had I not worked for NASA. I mean, I never would have dreamed
of going to all these places. I'm glad I did it, but I wouldn't want
to do it again.
Swanson:
You mentioned that you handled some of the correspondence with the
astronauts at that time. Did you actually look at some of the letters
and review the letters that would come in from the outside, or were
you handling basically correspondence, just follow-up correspondence?
Barnes:
On that mission, on that trip, I was just handling follow-up correspondence,
thank-you letters and helping the State Department with some of their
clerical things after the trip was over. But after the trip was over
and Neil Armstrong was assigned to headquarters as the deputy associate
administrator for aeronautics, I went to work for him as a public
affairs assistant and answered all of his public mail in his role
as an astronaut. He had a secretary who supported him in his job as
the deputy associate administrator and handled any invitations he
got for public appearances. My job was to prepare responses to his
public mail.
Swanson:
Since you worked with Neil after this, as you mentioned, can you share
anything? He's always been somewhat of an elusive character with the
Apollo 11 crew, very quiet, very to himself. Can you share any moments
or interesting anecdotal stories about working with Neil Armstrong?
Barnes:
Well, no. I don't know that you ever really get to know him. He was
very supportive of me while I was doing that job. There was a lot
of mail, and anything that came in that I thought deserved his special
attention and people would want him to sign certain things that they'd
send in, or they'd ask him for special inscriptions on photographs.
I had my own office and I would line these things up on a table in
my office. At the end of his work day as the deputy associate administrator,
he would come in and sign all those things. He wouldn't merely sign
them, he would write "To John, With best wishes." He was
very—
Swanson:
So you would read the letters or whatever.
Barnes:
Special mail and special letters that I didn't want to try to handle,
I would take to him. I had a regularly scheduled meeting time that
I would review these things with him. But every day, at the end of
his work day, he would go in and sign all those things. He was very
conscientiousness about doing that. I enjoyed working for him. He
let me handle my job, and I would go to him if I could foresee any
problems with answering a specific type of mail and get his decision
on what he wanted done.
Swanson:
Do you recall any interesting letters that he had received that come
to mind either from schoolchildren or professionals? I imagine he
got all different kinds that you would have to screen.
Barnes:
Well, people were always asking him for monetary donations. They were
always asking him for items that they could auction at celebrity auctions.
I remember we got one request from a group in his home state, in Ohio,
who wanted him to send them the toenail clippings from his left foot.
That was the first human foot to step on the moon. They wanted to
auction them off. [Laughter] Also a sock that he might have worn on
that foot, certified by him that he had worn it on his left foot.
During that time, too, all three of the astronauts had received a
lot of mail from the public, and gifts. His gifts were stored out
at the NASA warehouse in Alexandria on Fern Street. During this time,
his wife, Jan, and I went through everything that was stored out there
in that warehouse to catalog it, what it was and where it came from.
They were sent to his museum in Wapakoneta. It's run by the Ohio Historical
Society.
I had an opportunity to go to that museum after he had left NASA.
When I was on my way on a vacation trip, I stopped in Wapakoneta and
met his parents, and they took me on a tour of the museum. So I had
an opportunity to see some of these items that his wife and I had
cataloged. They were on display at his museum. I believe that Mike
Collins probably had his items sent to the [National] Air and Space
Museum [Smithsonian, Washington, D.C.], where he was the director
for a few years. I don't know what Colonel Aldrin did with his.
Swanson:
You mentioned that later that you moved on and became administrative
secretary to the associate administrator for aeronautics and space
technology. One of the highlights here was that you acted as one of
the chaperons or counselors for this international youth science tour.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Barnes:
The State Department and NASA and the Reader's Digest sponsored a
science competition in various countries, and the winners of those
science competitions were brought as a group to this country for a
tour of the scientific facilities.
Swanson:
What was the subject? It was an experiment that they had to perform?
Was it a space-related theme?
Barnes:
You know, I don't know. I don't recall. That was in 1972. I don't
really recall how they did it in each country. Well, frankly, this
probably should be off the record, but they say in some of these countries,
the teenager—the age group was fifteen to eighteen. The rumor
was—well, it wasn't exactly a rumor, but some of the representatives
were close relatives of the reigning monarch of these countries, so
it may not have been a real competition at all in some of the places.
I probably shouldn't—
Swanson:
Okay, we'll scratch that.
Barnes:
Yes, scratch that.
Swanson:
We'll expunge that from the record.
Barnes:
But I don't know how they conducted the scientific experiments that
won these competitions for these kids. My group, we had about eighty
in the group, and I was one of the chaperons. We had a group of two
chaperons for a group of twenty people. We were gone like two weeks.
Swanson:
So NASA basically hosted them?
Barnes:
Yes.
Swanson:
And they visited the different centers?
Barnes:
We went to Marshall Space Flight Center [Huntsville, Alabama], the
Johnson Space Center, and another facility in Boulder, Colorado, at
Lawrence Livermore in Los Angeles, [California], the Lawrence Livermore
Labs, and Oakridge, Tennessee. I can't remember some of the other
places.
Swanson:
You mentioned later in your career with NASA that you basically from
around 1980 on, it looks like, until your retirement in '94, that
you worked with the astronaut appearances. Tell us a little bit about
that capacity. I know from the public's perspective, there's always
requests that come in from people in different states that want an
astronaut to appear at some function. How, typically, did that work
and some interesting stories that you had during the rather long portion
of your career working in that capacity?
Barnes:
After Neil Armstrong left, I kind of wandered around the agency in
different jobs, and there was an opening in this job back in the office
that I started out in years ago in my first public affairs job, which
was, organizationally speaking, the same office. There was an opening
in that office, and I went back into that same office, this time as
a scheduling officer for astronaut appearances. At that time, some
appearances were being done out of the Johnson Space Center and some
were being done at headquarters. I worked with Jean Marinetti [phonetic]
on the astronaut appearances that were handled at headquarters.
Beginning with STS-1, I not only scheduled the appearances for the
first five Shuttle crew members as a crew, I scheduled them from my
office, but I also traveled into these various locations with them
or meeting them at the locations where they were to do appearances.
That would last—I would have them for close to a month, schedule
them for appearances that had come in, requests that had come in from
various organizations. I'd always schedule a hometown visit. So every
time a Shuttle crew was announced, I'd automatically go look for their
biogs [biographies] and find out where their home towns were so I'd
know where I'd be going next. And I was traveling about two weeks
out of every month.
Then in 1984, there was a reorganization of public affairs officers
in the Office of Public Affairs, and I was sent to International Relations,
co-located from Public Affairs. My job was to schedule astronauts
for international appearances. So once again, I got to work with local
American embassies and consuls and consulates.
Swanson:
You had a lot of experience by now.
Barnes:
Yes, and USIA people, on sending astronauts to different countries
to wave the flag and get the most mileage that NASA could get out
of them, frankly. I guess the astronauts sort of resigned themselves
to the fact that part of their job was to, you know, do public appearances
and say nice thing about NASA. I tried to make it as easy for them
as I could, but a lot of them didn't like that part of the job, but
knew they were committed to do it.
I enjoyed it, even though I was traveling a lot. I didn't travel in
international relations, I just sort of didn't want to go to different
countries and not be able to speak the language and try to get things
done like you can here in the United States. I didn't object to traveling
in the United States. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed meeting the local
folks in all these home towns and working with the mayor's committees.
The mayors always set up committees to plan the days, the events for
the astronauts. They all wanted to do the right thing for the astronauts.
We would do appearances that NASA could also get some mileage out
of, and it was quite an interesting job.
Swanson:
So if you included the first five, I can't help but be a little bit
partial to Jack [R.] Lousma, who is from Grand Rapids [Michigan].
Barnes:
Oh, he's a wonderful guy. I went to Michigan twice with him. We went
once to Lansing, he spoke to the legislature, and we also went to
Grand Rapids for about a week's worth of appearances in Grand Rapids.
Oh, he's really a neat guy, very easy to work with. He's one of these
people who would say, "Tell me what you want me to do and I'll
go do it," and point him in the right direction.
Swanson:
I guess one thing I somewhat overlooked and we'll come to a little
bit of a close here, is that you worked in the background with the
astronauts in making them look good and making their appearances come
off smoothly and so forth. I really haven't had a chance to address
what your feelings and thoughts were about the Apollo Program specifically,
and Apollo 11. Now that you've had a chance, especially being retired,
to kind of step back a little bit and take a breath and reflect on
the event as a whole, what are some of your thoughts on that achievement?
Barnes:
Well, I worked the protocol part of the Apollo 11 launch and it was
really quite mind-boggling to see. We were at Cocoa Beach [Florida]
for like a week ahead of the actual launch day, and people were already
gathering to witness the launch. By the time the launch day came,
the evening before the launch there were people sleeping on the beaches,
sleeping in their cars, because there were no more hotel rooms. They
were sitting in chairs in hotel lobbies. The marquees at Cocoa Beach,
the hotel marquees were all saying, "Good luck, Apollo 11,"
and those kinds of things. There were a lot of important people there
for the launch. You just couldn't help but feel that there was something
big happening, you know, and you were just glad to be a part of it.
My family went down for that launch. I remember when it took off,
when it lifted off the pad, I couldn't help but think, what are they
really going to experience once they get there? Are they going to
get back? Because despite all the things you'd heard, that it had
been carefully planned and they knew what to expect and everything
was going to go according to the flight plan, I sort of had a feeling
in the back of my mind, well, what if? I thought, the eyes of the
world are focused here in Cocoa Beach at the Kennedy Space Center.
I guess it wasn't the Kennedy Space Center at that time.
I just felt that I was glad to be a part of it and I wanted my children
to see it. My youngest child was just two and a half, and he vaguely
remembers, because of the launch sequence, when it starts to lift
off and all the smoke. He vaguely remembers that, but my two older
ones, they'll never forget it. I just think it was a significant thing
for the United States and for NASA, and I was glad that I had an itty
bitty small part on it.
Swanson:
It looks like you had a pretty significant part, especially with this
world tour going off when pretty much the eyes of the world were looking
at the crew members and trying to be part of the event as a whole.
Barnes:
It was overwhelming. That part was overwhelming. Especially when we
realized what we'd gotten ourselves into. [Laughter]
Swanson:
Are there any other comments that you'd care to share, part of the
interview here that I may have overlooked or stories that you would
care to share?
Barnes:
No, I think that we've pretty well covered it. I enjoyed my work with
the Shuttle guys, also, and women. I got an opportunity to know them
on our travels, and I really enjoyed getting to know them and to work
with them. They're all very distinct personalities. I felt like I
was sort of earning my keep with scheduling the things that could
benefit NASA and the astronauts, as well, help us with our budgeting
process. We always included members of Congress in all of our public
appearances.
In fact, with the STS-1 crew, John [W.] Young and Bob [Robert L.]
Crippen, Jake [Edwin Jacob] Garn invited them to Salt Lake City, [Utah],
and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sang for them for an evening appearance
there.
Swanson:
I guess this is probably maybe a good comparison, having participated
in this tour for Apollo 11, which was pretty much the peak of the
Apollo Program, and then coming back with Shuttle, arranging similar
tours and visits, did you notice a change in the public's attitude
toward NASA, spaceflight in general?
Barnes:
No, I didn't, because there was an awful lot of requests that were
coming in for the Shuttle crews. We really couldn't do them all. We
were very popular, still. Now, I guess I read stories, you know, and
some of the questions that the astronauts would get on the road were
sort of like, "Why are we spending all this money to go into
space?" They always had good answers, but I guess during the
Shuttle days you saw more of those kind of questions than you did,
for instance, on the world tour with the Apollo 11 astronauts. I guess
people's priorities had started to change.
But I was very sad when we decided not to continue to send flights
to the moon, because it seemed like all of my NASA career I'd heard
stories of how we were planning to colonize the moon and use it for
a stop-off to other planets. I never could really get it straight
in my mind why we weren't looking that far into the future that we
would not continue. It never dawned on me that we should not continue
on with it.
Swanson:
You being much more closely associated with it, it seemed all the
more crazy, I guess, why we had all this technology and we just kind
of let it go.
Barnes:
Let it go, yes. It's sad. I think it's sad. I know one of the speech
writers years ago, in response to a similar kind of question, made
the analogy of what if Queen [Isabela] had told Christopher Columbus,
"Well, we need this money for public housing"? You know,
there's always going to be problems with the welfare system and people
that don't have money, and you have to set your priorities, I think.
I think that at that time, NASA was only getting like two cents out
of the tax dollar, so I don't think that's too much to ask.
Swanson:
Especially with the Apollo Program, the response that you got overwhelmingly
from the world.
Barnes:
Oh, yes, from the world.
Swanson:
It's like it would be the farthest things from our minds at all.
Barnes:
And the spinoffs that we've gotten from later missions just boggles
the mind.
Swanson:
Well, I think we'll come to a close, unless you have anything else
that you would be interested in sharing, Gennie, to this interview.
I see that our time is up, so thank you very much.
Barnes:
Oh, thank you. I was glad to participate.
[End
of Interview]