NASA Johnson Space Center
Oral History Project
Edited Oral History Transcript
Clifford
K. Dupree
Interviewed by Jennifer Ross-Nazzal
Houston, Texas – 5 May
2009
Ross-Nazzal: Today is May 5, 2009. This
interview with Cliff Dupree is being conducted at JSC for the JSC
Facilities Oral History Project. The interviewer is Jennifer Ross-Nazzal,
assisted by Sandra Johnson. Thanks again for joining us this morning.
I know it’s a little hectic trying to find our room. I was wondering
if you could give us a short history about Building 9, what its original
purpose was, and how it was changed to support the Space Shuttle program.
Dupree: Originally, 9 North, which is the middle section of the building,
was built in the mid-70s, I believe. It started out with an FFT [Full
Fuselage Trainer] and a CCT [Crew Compartment Trainer], and then they
had a cargo bay with a Canadian arm on it. Then around the mid to
late ‘80s, the 9 Northwest section was added, and then in the
early ‘90s the East section of the building was added. The West
section was basically set up for [the International Space] Station.
The center of the building, which is 9 North, is still set up for
Shuttle. Then the East end of the building is set up for the engineering,
ER [mail code for the Software, Robotics, and Simulation Division],
which is basically, I guess, research and development for robotics.
Ross-Nazzal: Is any portion of that used for Space Shuttle?
Dupree: They do have an arm down there,
but I think it’s more of a Station arm. The Canadarm was, I
guess, retired and excessed. I don't know where it went. I’m
sure it wasn’t destroyed or anything, because it was in this
building since probably the early ‘80s or even before that.
Ross-Nazzal: Can you tell us how the
Space Vehicle Mockup Facility supported the Space Shuttle Program
and continues to support it to this day?
Dupree: Well, they have the FFT, which
is the Full Fuselage Trainer. They have the cockpit, the middeck,
and the lower deck. They have the cargo bay. They do a lot of working
with cameras from the cockpit with the cargo bay. Then the CCT is
basically a cockpit for training, and then now we also have the CCTII,
and it’s a cockpit. It can actually go vertical. A couple of
times a year, we turn it 180 degrees and we do a nose-down training,
which is pretty well just a class that they go in and kind of orientate
theirself inside of the cockpit in a nose-dive configuration. They
don’t really get in and strap down in the seats and go through
it like that.
Ross-Nazzal: Does each mission participate
in training in this building?
Dupree: Oh, yes. You have your crew,
which is training for whatever flight they’re on, and then you
have prime crew. They come in, the prime crew, for anything that they’ve
missed along for their training that’s required. Sometimes they
have last minute training before they go into quarantine; actually,
this week we do have some of those classes. That’s pretty well
as far as the Shuttle.
Ross-Nazzal: How long do these classes
last, or simulations? Are they two different things?
Dupree: Anywhere from an hour to, I
would say, four or five hours. There are so many classes. I really
couldn’t tell you all the classes. I do know they have a class
that they go in and it takes a whole day to set the wiring harnesses
up inside of the middeck, and they train on that. They have what we
call a bail-out class, where they practice using their sky-genie,
which is kind of a hardware that rappels off the top of the trainer
for emergency escape. It’s an emergency escape class. They actually
inflate the slide, and they slide out of the side hatch. I probably
mentioned they do the camera stuff.
Ross-Nazzal: Is that the camera on the
arm or the Hasselblad?
Dupree: There’s a camera that’s
in the cargo bay of the FFT. I believe there might be two of them,
aft and forward of the cargo bay.
Ross-Nazzal: Do they practice any sort
of eating exercises or any other?
Dupree: I think. I really don’t
know. I don’t think they [do], as far as eating. I think maybe
stowage, they do stowage type classes for packing and unpacking the
stowage boxes inside of the Shuttle.
Ross-Nazzal: Can you tell us the difference,
other than one of the CCTs can go vertical, are there any other differences
between the two?
Dupree: CCT can go vertical. The CCTII,
you can actually go vertical, which would be in a launch position,
and then they have the descent, which would be nose-down. You could
also put the CCT on the side and turn a side hatch up or a side hatch
down. We’ve never done that class. There’s really been
no need for it. Usually nose-up is the most configuration, other than
just at its normal where it’s like it’s sitting on the
runway. Other than that, pretty well nose-up would be the launch configuration.
The FFT has the capability of going nose-up in a launch.
Ross-Nazzal: Does it really?
Dupree: You have to separate it from
the cargo bay, and you have to add some hardware to the back of the
bulkhead. That part of it I don’t believe is around any more.
We hung onto it, I believe, up to ten years ago. With the CCTI and
CCTII being able to go vertical, really wasn’t any need to have
that on the FFT anymore.
Ross-Nazzal: When the astronauts come
here to train, are these integrated simulations, or are they just
simulations in-house?
Dupree: They do integrated sims with
mission control in, I believe, Building 5, if I’m not mistaken.
Ross-Nazzal: Are these motion-base simulators
or are they fixed-base?
Dupree: Ours?
Ross-Nazzal: Yes.
Dupree: Fixed base.
Ross-Nazzal: In here?
Dupree: Yes.
Ross-Nazzal: Have there been any changes
to any of the trainers since you first started working here in ’82?
Dupree: Oh, yes.
Ross-Nazzal: Can you tell us about those?
Dupree: I believe the CCT, the dash
was changed. I want to say they called it Met Ops [phonetic] but I’m
not for sure if that’s the right terminology. Clayton [H. Hamm]
could tell you more of those kind of details. I do know we did some
upgrades to the middeck in the FFT for structural purposes. That’s
pretty well an all-wood trainer, made of all just wood, so we did
some upgrades for floor-loading. The CCT, we took the airlock out
of it because we no longer have an internal airlock inside the trainers.
So after we lost—
Ross-Nazzal:
Columbia?
Dupree:
Yes, Columbia.
Ross-Nazzal: Were these trainers built
in-house, or were they built by contractors?
Dupree: CCT, I believe, was built in
9 South. FFT was built in 9 South. CCTII was contracted through Johnson
Engineering. They had the, I guess you could say, the aluminum shell
built, and then it was shipped to Building 220, where the Johnson
Engineering contract assembled all the internal components, the wire
and harnesses, the seats, all the electronics. All that was done in-house,
and then it was moved over here and there was some further work done.
Ross-Nazzal: Are the CCTs mainly made
of aluminum, or are they also made of wood like the FFT?
Dupree: CCT is some aluminum and mostly
wood. CCTII is pretty well all aluminum, the skin, everything. The
primary, secondary structure is almost 100 percent aluminum.
Ross-Nazzal: Can you tell us about some
of the other facilities like the Tile Repair Training Area and why
that was established?
Dupree:
The Tile Repair had come along probably four, five years ago, after
we lost [Columbia], and basically what that class is for
is once they’re in orbit, they can look for tiles missing and
possibly try to go in and repair them. I don't know if they have replacement
tiles, but I know they have what they call the Goo Gun, which is basically
like a high-dollar caulking gun. They practice playing with the caulk
or whatever kind of silicone-type material it is, so when they reenter
they don’t have hotspots, usually it’s on the leading
edge of the wing.
Ross-Nazzal: Now, we’ve seen a
few people come in here with the undergarments for the spacesuits.
When they’re in the trainers and in this Tile Repair Area, are
they wearing suits?
Dupree: I don’t think Tile Repair
does suited subjects. We call them suited subjects, whether they’re
crew or non-crew personnel. They do in the trainers, but as far as
E Wing, I’ve never seen them do a suited person.
Ross-Nazzal: Can you also tell us about
the ET [External Tank] Umbilical Door Trainer?
Dupree: About the only thing I really
know about it—it’s been around for, I don't know, a long
time. I want to say a year or so ago, I believe there were some parts
on the ET door that’s in orbit that broke, and they came over
here and took some parts off of our trainer because they were pretty
well downgraded flight hardware, so they actually took the parts,
flew them, and replaced them. So we no longer have the parts. I think
they made some parts that would work to replace what they took, but
I don’t think they’re to the quality of what was in there.
Ross-Nazzal: Do you ever have to reconfigure
your facility at all for new Space Shuttle missions, or are all the
trainers are pretty much set?
Dupree: No, the trainers are pretty
well set in place, and we haven’t moved any trainers in probably
ten years. The way everything is set now with Station and Shuttle
is pretty well the way it is. The only thing that we change, we may
do upgrades, whether it’s electrical or structural, for certain
types of classes. We set the trainers up for whatever class it is
with the hardware that we have here in the building, and it’s
constantly rotating. You’ll set it up in the morning for one
class, they’ll go in and tear it down to a normal configuration,
and then they will bring new hardware in for the next class.
Ross-Nazzal: Can you give us an example
of some of the different upgrades or changes that you might make for
specific classes?
Dupree: Well, like, Met Ops [phonetic]
was one of them—I believe that’s the right term. Most
of the upgrades that’s done now, I would have to say, is pretty
well in Station. The last year or so, we’ve slowly started backing
off of any kind of structural upgrades to the Shuttle trainers.
Ross-Nazzal: Are there any specific
Space Shuttle missions that you supported that really stand out clearly
in your mind?
Dupree: Wow.
Ross-Nazzal: I’m sure they’re
all memorable.
Dupree: There’s so many. They’re
all fun. They’re all exciting to work on, and the different
crews and the different hardware. I would have to say—I wasn’t
working in this building—but one of the memorable would have
been when the Ku-band antennas, the first one actually came onsite.
I worked in the Rigging Department, and we escorted it, unloaded it
off a plane in Ellington Field [Houston, TX] and took it to Building
17, maybe. That was a long time ago. Then from there it went to Building
44 for testing. God, there’s just so many. That one always sticks
out because of the procedures we went through. Actually had a military
escort and the whole nine yards.
Ross-Nazzal: You were here during STS-26.
Do you have any recollections of that return to flight and training
of that crew? Did that change how things were operated here in Building
9?
Dupree: You mean when we first fired
up and started flying again?
Ross-Nazzal: Yes.
Dupree: Yes. God, we probably had six
or seven platforms built for media throughout the building for filming,
and they were pretty well here until the whole, was it 13 or 14 days,
until they actually landed. So there was a lot of hype here in the
building, because we had a lot of people from all over the world here
to film. It was pretty exciting, yes.
Ross-Nazzal: Yes, I can imagine. For
that flight, they also added the crew escape capability. Did that
change how you trained?
Dupree: The escape pole?
Ross-Nazzal: Yes.
Dupree: Yes. I’ve seen them actually,
what they call firing the arm, the pole. I’ve not been involved
with a lot of the training on that. There’s some pros and cons
on that piece of hardware. Because, with what I know about it, there’s
such a small window when you can actually use that arm. You can’t
be going over a certain speed, you’ve got to be at a certain
altitude, that kind of stuff. So as far as a lot of training, I’ve
seen a couple of classes, but I’m not real familiar with it.
Ross-Nazzal: Earlier, you had mentioned
the Canadarm, that it was here and that it has been excessed. Can
you tell us about Manipulator and Development Facility when it was
here, and what it was used for?
Dupree: When I’d first come to
JSC in ’82, it was on the west end of what they called 9A back
then. It was the center of the building. Say right now, when you go
in the high bay, it’s broken down into A, B, and C section.
The A section back then, when it was by itself, they had the walls
blacked out for night ops [operations] where they could actually do
night training on that end of the building. They covered all the windows,
turned out all the office lights, so literally black in the building.
You couldn’t see. It has a lot to do with the lights they used,
so when they’re using the arm they could determine if it’s
going to be a sufficient amount of lighting.
Then after that, they built the B and C section. They moved the cargo
bay with that arm to the C section, which is the east end of the building,
and it was there for quite a few years. They used a lot of the lightweight
balloons. They’re, I don’t want to say a Kevlar-type material,
but some kind of a material, and they’d fill them with helium
because the arm actually could only pick up, I want to say it was
like 55 pounds. They were limited to what they could pick up with
the arm. The arm that’s in the building now, if you look at
it, it’s probably 20 times bigger than the Canadian arm, as
far as in diameter of the pipe and all that, just because of the bulk
you have to have here with gravity. They used to use it quite a bit,
and I think there was an incident where they raised the arm and it
fell. Nobody was hurt. They did a big investigation, and it sat there
for several years, and then they excessed it.
Ross-Nazzal: So now they use the other
facility?
Dupree: The other arm, you mean?
Ross-Nazzal: Yes.
Dupree: Yes, they do. They have some
lightweight helium-filled type modules. They practice. I guess these
balloons are the size of, say, a lab or a node, and they practice
sticking it in the cargo bay. They have a cargo bay on the east end
that’s mounted on its side, doesn’t have any doors, but
they just practice putting it inside. They actually have a little
cupola down there, which is like six windows and a window on the top,
that they sit in and they operate the arm.
Ross-Nazzal: Interesting. Do you have
any recollections of a time when this facility was used when a mission
was up and there was a problem, and you guys were called on to help
remedy the situation?
Dupree: I would have to say I know there
was one, and I can’t tell you the mission it was. The Shuttle
hatch—they could not open for whatever reason it was, and in
the middle of the night they came over here to Building 9. We opened
it for them, and then engineers actually went in and went through
our hatch step by step and wrote basically a step by step procedure
for the astronauts until they got to exactly what was wrong with it.
They figured it out, and they communicated to them the steps they
needed to take to actually be able to open the hatch.
Then there was one a few years ago, they came to the building to look
at, I want to say, one of the blankets that is on the Station. They
went through the blankets, the materials, and I don’t actually
know why they were doing it or what it was for. But they figured out
what they needed to, and then they were gone. So they do come in and
out during missions or flights, and of course if it’s a Station
issue it could be any time.
Ross-Nazzal: Is that fairly common for
the Space Shuttle Program?
Dupree: I wouldn’t say a whole
lot. It seems like if you tried to average it out, that I know about,
maybe every other year you get something that’s really highly
profiled and they need to come in the building and figure out a problem.
So as far as training, there is other reasons they use the trainers.
It depends on what it is. The fidelity of the hardware they’re
wanting to use. We may not have that fidelity, depending on what it
is.
Ross-Nazzal: Earlier, you had mentioned
the Department of Defense [DoD]. I was curious what problems or difficulties
you might have had with classified flights and how you dealt with
that. How did you deal with working with the military?
Dupree: Are you talking about with the
Ku-band antenna?
Ross-Nazzal: No, working with the military.
Early on the in the Space Shuttle program, we had a number of DoD
flights. Did that create any problems for you, being that we were
a civilian agency and very open?
Dupree: Not for me, because I went through
the actual paperwork to be badged for the buildings. Back then I was
in the Rigging Department and I had to go into Building 5, Building
30, Building 9, and do different jobs. It affected me? No, not really.
Ross-Nazzal: What about the operations
in this facility? Was that a complication in terms of doing classes
or running simulations?
Dupree: For DoD?
Ross-Nazzal: Yes.
Dupree: I wasn’t in this building
at that time. Probably Steve [Stephen J.] Elliot could tell you. I
don’t remember DoD affecting the training in the building, but
I wouldn’t swear to it.
Ross-Nazzal: Sure, I understand that.
Who have been some of the main contractors who have supported the
building since you’ve been working here?
Dupree: I want to say before my time
it was Bendix, then it was Johnson Engineering, SPACEHAB, and now
Raytheon which is an umbrella contract. Basically you have Raytheon
as the prime, and there’s five or six subcontracts to them.
Ross-Nazzal: How many people currently
work in the facility as compared to when you first started?
Dupree: In this building? I want to
say for Shuttle, to support Shuttle and Station training, I want to
say there’s like between 70 and 75 people that’s housed
in the building. There may be more people that support the contract.
You know, you have offsite people, your admin people, people in your
shipping and receiving department. So actually housed in the building,
there’s around 70.
Ross-Nazzal: When there’s a simulation
going on, how many people are working those simulations or classes?
Dupree: It could be anywhere from two
to four technicians to set the class up, and then you have, it could
be one, two, or six crew members, the instructors and the staff that
actually works with the instructors. You may have suit techs [technicians].
If you’re going to have suits involved, you have suit techs.
There could be four to six suit techs. Depending on how many astronauts
you have, pretty well you have a person, I believe, one per suit assigned,
and they actually help whatever astronaut they’re assigned to,
or suited subject.
Ross-Nazzal: Do you know when JSC began
transitioning from the Apollo crew training to Space Shuttle crew
training? Has anyone talked to you about that? I know you started
in ’82.
Dupree: No. I want to say it was in
the early ‘70s or mid ‘70s, but no, I was in high school
then. (laughter)
Ross-Nazzal: I figured. I just thought
I would ask. I think I’ve hit most of my questions. Other than
the people that you mentioned earlier, Ronny [Ronald L.] Newman and
Clayton Hamm and Steve Elliot, are there any other people, you think,
that we might talk to about the history of the building or the trainers
themselves?
Dupree: Depends on what depth you want
to get into the trainers. I’m going to say Steve started in
the building in, I think it was the late ‘70s, late, late ‘70s,
which he’d come from another building. He’s pretty well
gone through every phase all the way up to manager, from technician
to facilities to supervisor to manager. He’s pretty well run
the whole course of this building, so he would be probably the most
knowledgeable. There may be a few other people that, if you want to
get into the detail of setting classes up, that would be a lot more
knowledgeable than me.
Ross-Nazzal: I did think of a few other
questions. You mentioned that in the mid to late ‘80s, that
9 Northwest was added. Can you give us a little bit more detail about
that? I’m just looking at my notes here. You also mentioned
that there were other changes made to the building. Can you explain
why those changes were made?
Dupree: Well, 9B was added, or the west
end, was added for the Station. It started out very low fidelity trainers.
Not even trainers. They were really mockups. Some people still call
the trainers mockups. I prefer to call them trainers, but some people
you will hear call them mockups. Station started out, they actually
installed a system that kind of represented the structure of Station,
and it had an elevated platform on it with an arm. That was around
for a few years, and then it went away. They brought in a lunar habitat
back in the ‘80s. It was like three or four levels. It was around
for a few years, mostly evaluations. The Hubble [Space] Telescope
was actually fully assembled in the building. It was approximately
50 feet high, full-scale. Now we have part of that in the building,
and that’s where most of the training is. It’s on the
Hubble doors. The astronauts train on the Hubble doors. As far as
the building, there’s been quite a few mods over the years.
The Space Center Houston Catwalk, for one, was added for tourists.
Ross-Nazzal: When was that added?
Dupree: God, I want to say it was in
the early ‘90s. No, maybe it was the mid ‘90s, because
early ‘90s, the 9C, the east section, was built, and it was
shortly after that.
Ross-Nazzal: What was 9C built for?
Dupree: I really don’t know why
it was built. I think they were heading in one direction, and engineering,
ER ended up in there for research and development of robotic arms
or robots, period. Other than that, that I can really remember, it
was mostly structural stuff that’s, you know, cranes being worked
on or upgraded or that type of stuff.
Ross-Nazzal: One other question I had
for you. Do you have any documents or memos or letters or just general
information about the facility that we could get copies of or scan
for the historical record, so people can learn more about the facility
itself?
Dupree: You’re talking about as
far as old documents that I have?
Ross-Nazzal: Yes.
Dupree: Steve Elliot would be the one
to talk to, because I don't know of any. Because, like I said, I’ve
only been on this contract for about 15 years. As far as going back
further than that, I can’t think of any right off. There may
be some here. I think there’s some old drawings of the FFT,
old drawings of the CCT—
Ross-Nazzal: Those would be great.
Dupree: —and the CCT2.
Ross-Nazzal: Those would be fantastic,
if we could get copies.
Dupree: You’d have to just talk
to him. Now as far as facility drawings, you could probably go to
COD [Center Operations Directorate]. I don’t know how far back
they keep drawings. They should have drawings of the original building,
and then each phase of the add-ons.
Ross-Nazzal: Do you know who the contractors
were that did these add-ons and modifications to the building?
Dupree: No. But if you went to COD,
they could probably tell you.
Ross-Nazzal: Yes, I’m sure they
probably have that in the records. This was relatively painless, I
hope.
Dupree: Oh, yes.
Ross-Nazzal: So I appreciate your time
today.
Dupree: No problem.
Ross-Nazzal: Thank you very much.
[End of interview]